Wednesday, August 30, 2017
The New Nikon D850 Is Very Exciting But It Raises A Couple Of Questions Including Some Related To Fujifilm
First, no I'm not abandoning my Fujifilm gear to go back to Nikon. In fact, the two images I'm using to accompany this post were made the other day with my Fujifilm X-T2 and 16-55mm f/2.8 lens combination. Indeed, a very versatile and powerful combination. Yes, the new D850 is extremely attractive to a landscape, travel and generalist photographer like me and has incorporated some really fantastic features. There is not much the new Nikon D850 can't do. However, I'm loving my X-T2 and lenses too much to dump all of it to go back to full frame. That is off the table.
That out of the way, there are a few questions that immediately arose in my mind when I read about this new Nikon 45.7mp camera. My questions don't necessarily revolve around the camera itself, but the lenses that one would use with it.
First, 45.7mp is a lot of pixels (can we ever have enough?). I previously owned both a Nikon D800E and a Nikon D810. Both have 36mp sensors and I found that I really didn't need 36mp, even for very large prints. There are other cameras out there that have almost as many pixels as the new D850 (Sony A7RII, Pentax K1) and some a tad more (Canon 5D and 5DS), but still, that is a lot of detail that most of us will never need (not want but actually need).
Here is my concern. Most of the current batch of the best full frame professional grade lenses for Nikon, Canon and others have been in the market for a while and were initially designed when cameras with about 24mp (or less) were the most advanced cameras available. Sony is an exception since they are currently introducing many excellent (from what I read) FE mount lenses to compliment their A7 series and their new A9 camera. The A7RII has about 42mp.
I don't know the limits of capability in resolving fine detail and data with these older lenses and I don't know if using any but the newest lenses designed for these high pixel cameras will actually faithfully resolve all of the detail that can be captured with the sensor. What are the limits of resolution for these currently available lenses when it comes to number of pixels they can accurately resolve? The current, somewhat older, lenses have been truly excellent but are they good enough to resolve 45.7 mp? Did Nikon design resolving power of this magnitude into their professional grade lenses when they first released them several years ago? Are you going to actually get the detail you are paying for? At this point, I don't know now but I would want to know before I put down $3300 US for the camera plus many thousands more for lenses to use with it.
I wonder if anyone will conduct resolution bench tests (Roger Cicala at Lensrentals.com maybe?) to scientifically determine that the files the average user will make with the current crop of lenses will actually resolve 45.7mp and not just 28mp or 37mp, etc? I'm hoping we will all find out in the next couple of months as this camera proliferates throughout the marketplace.
I've been a follower of Thom Hogen for many years. He writes the www.bythom.com blog, conducts African workshops yearly, is an author and, as far as I'm concerned, is the premiere Nikon expert in the United States. I have a lot of respect for his opinions and he just published an article on this very matter. He gives a list of Nikon lenses he believes will work well on this camera as he says he fully tested them for the D800 and D810 and says the lenses can resolve their 36 megapixels. You can find his article here. As far as I know, he has not actually tested each of his recommended lenses for resolving potential on this new, higher pixel sensor, which resolves about 25% more detail. I'm sure he will and give us the benefit of his tests so we can make intelligent buying decisions. Thank you in advance, Thom. As of today, the jury may still be out as far as knowing if any of these lenses actually resolve 45.7mp. But again, I trust Thom's judgment but we will see...
A second question that comes to mind is, "Will it actually be worthwhile buying one of these cameras if tests show that with current lenses achievement of full resolution isn't going to materialize?" Will the typical D850 buyer place the high resolution capabilities as his or her number one priority or is it enough that the autofocus and processor are from the D5 and D500 and those are the main reasons for purchasing this new camera? Everyone is different, but what will be more important to the average D850 buyer?
Third, did Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Zeiss, Cosina and the other independent lens manufacturers, whose lenses many photographers use for various reasons on their current high end digital cameras with fewer pixels, design their lenses to resolve adequate detail for these new, higher pixel sensors? Is it worth their while to design newer, more expensive but better resolving lenses. Can they sell them? Is the market large enough? I think we have seen some of that already with Sigma's Art series of lenses. But the pixel creep still is rising and there is no indication that it will stop anytime soon. Is the bottom line that most lenses won't be able to resolve 45.7mp or more worth of detail and data? Certainly the inexpensive kit lenses would not.
I know Canon has a couple of 50mp cameras in the marketplace. I think I remember reading that they weren't reviewed as being outstanding, but I don't remember why. Did the reviewers not give them praise have to do with lack of superior dynamic range, ISO performance, camera features or other camera-based factors or were the Canon lenses that were being used were not giving the owners of these cameras the types of files they expected? Those two cameras made a big splash in the media when introduced, then they kind of faded away for some reason. I haven't been a Canon shooter for many years so I don't keep up with Canon and I don't have an answer to this. If anyone knows if the lenses' performance on these 50 mp bodies was the issue, please leave a comment.
As a result of all of these new high pixel count sensors in cameras now being introduced, will we see some of the stalwart professional Nikon, Canon and independently produced lenses with a Nikon/Canon/Sony mount redesigned and reintroduced to better resolve the data that can be recorded by these sensors as well as sensors that will be introduced in the future? If so, of course the newer, higher resolving lenses will be at an even higher price than current lenses cost now. I think it is a given that the megapixel race is still on and future sensors will have even more pixels? How high will the pixel count go and can lenses keep up with it at a cost we can actually afford?
Finally, if the only thing you are after is the most pixels, does it make better sense to buy a camera such as a Fujifilm GFX or Hasselblad X1D, both 50mp medium format cameras, which are about the same size as the Nikon rather than the so-called "full frame" cameras whose sensors are much smaller resulting in individual pixels that are much smaller? I think it is a given that larger individual pixels are better pixels and a medium format sensor with an equal number of pixels would produce higher quality files. But that is another discussion.
I am excited about these new, high pixel cameras that we are seeing today. I'm even more excited about some of the latest features from which we are benefiting, such as better dynamic range, faster and more accurate focusing, better high ISO performance. It is all good in my book. I love photography. I love the technology we get to incorporate which allows us to be more creative. I hope the market continues to support innovation and future creativity with our gear. I also hope the manufacturers can keep their products affordable to most of us.
Thanks for looking. Enjoy!
Dennis A. Mook
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I agree with most of your points Dennis, but we all need to realize that 45mp is a resolution jump of only 12% over the 36mp D800/D810 so the issue of actually getting the resolution for which one has paid, dearly, is a relatively smaller issue. Thom is likely correct that the 36mp capable lenses will likely do well on the 850. Had Nikon put an electronic view finder on the 850, I'd be waiting in line with the fanboys. Many people spend more time analyzing technical issues than actually photographing; I've been known to do that but I do a lot of imaging with my X T-2 and bevy of lenses. I look forward to your blog entries, thanks.
ReplyDeleteEric, thank you for your kind words and thoughts. Twelve percent is not a large jump assuming the lenses one owns can actually resolve 36mp in the first place. I'm not convinced that there is a huge number of lenses out there (most have never actually been tested) that will allow you to fully realize all of the pixels you are paying for. If you look at Thom's list, lenses are dropping off as being recommended.
DeleteI think one point I was trying to make is that if you are going to invest in buying a tool that resolves extreme detail you better darn well be sure everything in the imaging chain supports that level of resolution. Lenses, technique, tripod, care during editing, etc. if it doesn't, buy fewer pixels to ensure you get your money's worth.
Like you, if the D850 had an EVF, I would already have pre-ordered mine!
Same for me, I would have ordered the D850 in a heartbeat if it had the hoped for integrated EVF (aka Hybrid Viewfinder).
DeleteWhile I don't necessarily need 45mp from this latest Nikon (or indeed any camera brand), I will happily accept the file size for all the other improvements that the D850 offers over the D810. The articulating rear screen, improved auto focus performance, faster frame rate etc are for me at least, more desirable features than the megapixel count and all without compromising the dynamic range of the D810. Some form of electronic viewfinder either built in, or perhaps external, would have made the camera perfect. After using my wife's Sony A77II and A7II cameras, I am able to appreciate the benefits that the electronic viewfinder offer.
ReplyDeleteIn my film days, I shot with a Pentax 67 and Fuji GX 617 believing a bigger format was "better" and that certainly was the case when I supplied stock images or delivered images to a client. Shooting with the bigger film formats provided a safety margin in how big the image would ultimately be used plus it helped with a clients perceptions.
I still shoot stock and produce large prints, but now find that 24mp is generally more than enough and where I need a larger file size, there is sometimes the option of stitching image files. I have always been a "pixel peeper" and for me it is always about the quality of the pixels, with the megapixel count being secondary. Nikon has either updated, or introduced new lenses lately and while it is important to remain current, I imagine this has been because of the high demands that cameras such as the D850 place on lenses. There is no benefit to the megapixel count increasing and resultant file size, without a corresponding increase in resolution and it is here that lens quality is important. "Lens quality" will of course mean different things to different photographers depending on the style of photography that one undertakes. For instance wide open performance of a lens will be important to a portrait photographer, but not at all important to a landscape photographer.
I do not have a commitment to any camera brand at the moment but the Nikon D850 is looking very appealing. As photographers we are spoilt with options from the different manufacturers and we have never had it so good!
Stefan,
DeleteI could have authored your comments exactly! My sentiments are reflected in your words to the point that I, too, used to photograph for years with a 6X7 Pentax because I demanded better quality than a 35mm camera could deliver. I, too, pixel peep even though I try hard to break that habit. I, too, found my D810's dynamic range one of its best features and feel that the D850's feature set far outweighs its number of pixels. Finally, I, too, photograph for stock and have found 24mp my sweet spot. As for brands, I choose what gets the job done for me.
Either you have been reading my blog for a long time and read all these things in what I have previously posted or we share a complex coincidence! I choose the latter.
Thank you for your inciteful comments. Hit home for me.
Hi Dennis,
DeleteI have fond memories of my Pentax 67 with my most used lens being the 45mm. My introduction to the digital age came with the purchase of an Olympus E1 which was on model runout. "Only" 5mp of course, but the results were often surprising. Congratulations on your blog and have a great weekend!
Wasn't my comment to your liking?
ReplyDeleteJeff, your comment did not reach me. I've published all comments that have come in. Please send it again. Thank you.
DeleteHi Dennis,
ReplyDeleteI’ll try again. I have a D850 on order. I have recently spent a lot of time researching an X1D or GFX or the D850. I swapped from Hasselblad to Nikon some years back and still yearn for the files that a digital Hasselblad can produce. At the end of the day, I decided to stick with Nikon. I can still use Capture One, there is no additional pain or expense, and I have the set of focal lengths that I want.
Having switched to Nikon, I acquired a set of adapted Leica R lenses, all of which are stellar according to Mr Puts. I also have an Otus 55 and Zeiss 135. I would be very happy to provide you with raw files once I have the D850. I strongly suspect that my lenses will perform well on the new body. If you are interested, you know where I am.
Thanks for sending it once more. I have no idea as to why your comment didn't make it to my inbox earlier.
DeleteI'm in the process of writing a blog post about the efficacy of buying a D850 vs. a GFX or X1D. I probably will post it next week, but the crux of it is....well, it will be out soon.
I was a Leica R (and Leica M) user for quite some time just before I switched to digital. If those Leica lenses perform as well on the Nikon as they did on my R8s, R7, and R4s, then you will not be disappointed. As far as the Zeiss lenses are concerned, I have heard nothing but great things about them as well. Sounds like you are set to go as soon as you new Nikon arrives.
How is old Erwin doing? I suspect he is still writing. I once sent him 6 rolls of Kodak ISO 25 film (negative stock but the name escapes me at the moment) for him to do some resolution and other tests. We exchanged some emails and it was nice. I still have many Leica books, brochures, etc. in my library that I need to get around to sell on EBay, including a few copies of Erwin Puts first and later Leica books.
Indeed, I would be interested in eventually seeing a full Rez RAW file from the D850. However, it might turn out to be dangerous as I may start to lust for one! Lol.
Thanks again for the extra effort in commenting twice.
Great light you had for these images.
ReplyDeleteIt was but I don't think I can take credit for the light! Lol. Thanks, Peter.
Delete